Raf Simons' transition from creating sharply-cut, street-inspired menswear to earning international editorial kudos as Jil Sander's creative director was unexpected but well earned. The young Belgian designer is currently expanding his creative repertoire with The Avant-Garde Diaries, a global curated project organized with Mercedes-Benz. Following Berlin Fashion Week, Simons invites ten artists to contribute music, design, art and performance, demonstrating their individual definitions of "avant-garde-ism." Simons has shrouded the project in mystery (even appearing in the promotional video with his face completely blackened by shadows), but he shares with us his ideas about fashion's future, the importance of being cutting-edge and Berlin's position as a bellwether for pioneering creative projects.
Ana Finel Honigman: Since you are looking at the avant-garde, what represents the “establishment” to you?
RS: The avant-garde is a very complicated word, isn’t it?
AFH: Of course. So, what is the garde that you’re avant?
RS: I actually titled my event “Transmission,” not “avant-garde.” On the most basic level, this is a period where Mercedes-Benz is seriously contemplating opening itself to a new generation. “Transmission” is a more suitable title for an event where I am curating an exhibition and incorporating lots of different work. It expresses a link between my interests. It also expresses something about Mercedes as a transport company. It is a word that conveys something about the relationship between man and machine. It is about the transmission of one thing to another. It is a suitable word for my work too, especially with my obsession with Joy Division. But, if we have to talk about the “avant-garde” then we can discuss that term for a very long time. It’s a very complicated word.
AFH: It’s ironic because the term itself is so future-focused, yet very historically grounded. The term literally refers to the future but it immediately evokes thoughts of past movements—Dada, Surrealism.
RS: I think the word is too heavily loaded historically. What we are doing is just drawing attention to people who I think are interesting and partially linked to what I am doing and what Mercedes is doing.
AFH: What is Mercedes doing?
RS: Mercedes realises that they are currently targeting an older audience and they want to reach younger people too. Instead of designing a car or making a new advertisement, they are doing this. They have a new car, which will be presented there and I chose to present it myself. But outside of that, they added no criteria or caveats. They let me choose whomever I found interesting. My selection was very based in Berlin. It was chosen in relation to Berlin, with a focus on certain themes, fascinations and ideas that reflect Berlin’s creativity and culture. Mercedes is showing openness within their corporate environment to these ideas. Cars are usually presented in very cliché ways.
AFH: You weren’t shocked to see Jessica Stam in a tight dress prowling on a Mercedes?
RS: For example. But we are presenting the car simply as a suggestion. I am not saying that our way is better, or “avant-garde,” but it is different.
AFH: In terms of the German aspect of the project, Germany is one of the biggest luxury markets in Europe. It might be the biggest. Germans love cars yet have little interest in fashion. Do you have insights into why? Why do you think Germans want to peacock themselves on the road but remain discreet or non-threatening in their personal imagine?
RS: I am happy to discuss this, because it’s an area where I perform, but it is not directly related to the project. I did not invite another fashion designer to participate and I was bringing people from different areas. Many of these people relate to fashion but this project is not really a direct comparison to Mercedes Benz Fashion Week. It’s clear that Mercedes relates to fashion as an opportunity to brand the event with cars baring the logo. This could have happened during Fashion Week but I am almost glad it didn’t. That tie would have brought a specific audience but I feel that it is better it stays separate.
AFH: Outside the event, what are your impressions of fashion’s role in the German luxury market or German cultural identity?
RS: I cannot say that Germans are not interested in fashion because there are Germans who have an extremely important and interesting voice in fashion.
AFH: True! But they don’t necessarily live and work—and definitely not show—here?
RS: Is that important to you?
AFH: Its important to Berlin. There is a brain drain here.
RS: Why do you think that Berlin cannot be an important capital for fashion? That question is everywhere this week. Once you enter Berlin, the immediate question is why Berlin cannot be a significant city for fashion. Personally, I think asking the question offers the answer. I think it is always good when things start organically. If something is starting on its own then it is always good. But Berlin Fashion Week seems moulded, almost artificial. Maybe no one wanted to have it.
AFH: People want to participate in the party but I agree that it has arisen inorganically and remains separate from the more creative sensibility in the city. Berlin’s real strength is the art scene. Much of the fashion shown here originates and relates more with Munich and other German cities. There’s also not enough money floating around the city to properly support young designers.
RS: I don’t believe in that. I believe that there isn’t the money but I don’t believe that you need money. Name one Belgian who had financial support from the city of Antwerp or any significant institution. I don’t think you could, because it has nothing to do with financial support.
Look at Holland. How many Dutch designers do you know who have an internationally important career? Yet they all get so much support from the city. Money is just thrown at them—all of them. Meanwhile, they only have Viktor & Rolf.
AFH: Viktor & Rolf are worth whatever it takes to make them.
RS: Yes, but Germany has Karl Lagerfeld and Jil Sanders.
AFH: But that’s not Berlin. Outside Berlin, the style is so conservative. It’s like the contrast of New York and Washington DC.
RS: I get you. I agree. I don’t understand why Berlin doesn’t have more. Even Vienna has a cooler scene. Helmut Lang came from Vienna. He left but he was there for a long time. Maybe I’ll move to Berlin.
AFH: Welcome. But the “maybe” sounds dubious. Maybe many things can happen…
RS: I would never move here to make Berlin into a fashion city. I have zero interest in moving to a city just to make it into a fashion city. That is not my mission. But I think it’s a very interesting ground for my Raf Simons brand. It would be really interesting. The art scene and blah-blah mean rejuvenation and transmission.
AFH: In my experience, men also take experimental street fashion more seriously than other areas of fashion here.
RS: I have a very conflicted relationship with this German mentality. I have an obsession with it but it also freaks me out. There is a certain kind of German male behaviour that fascinates but troubles me.
AFH: Do you speak German?
RS: Ich spreche Deutsch sehr komfortabel...
AFH: My suggestion to you is forget that. I have lived here happily by not learning the language. Everyone is very nice when you don’t know what they are saying.
RS: [laughs] That is a great plan. Where is the city that you most prefer to live?
AFH: Berlin. All kidding aside, I can’t imagine moving elsewhere. I think people who live elsewhere are just wrong. The lifestyle here is just so pleasant.
RS: That is why I don’t understand the lack of young fashion labels establishing themselves here. It needn’t be only native German labels. Where are the expats?
AFH: I think there is still a deeply embedded sense that shopping is not part of the culture here. It might be a remnant from Communism, but shopping is not a particularly popular leisurely activity. Instead wandering around in stores, people seem more inclined to sit in cafes. The financial crisis demonstrated the wisdom of that mentality for consumers, but it’s hard for people creating and hoping for support for a product.
RS: Then Berlin remains an encapsulated environment. It is so unrealistic. There is no generation or area that remains encapsulated or can afford to.
AFH: Berlin is so global yet remains a very particular, unique, place… for the time being.
RS: The internet will change all that. Net-a-Porter and all these shopping sites will change everything. Who limits their shopping behaviour to the city where they live? Nobody does that anymore.
AFH: True. And there are also all these websites that work within the young and upstart Berlin mentality, like NJAL.
RS: The biggest problem for Berlin is that people with money think it’s cool to visit, but they won’t live here. It isn’t chic enough for them. They won’t bring their money. The high level galleries will come here but people with real money won’t make Berlin their home base. There were always a lot of artists in Berlin but not too many galleries. But now there are a lot of galleries. The question is how to get fashion to be in the same state here.
